Advice on Buying Used Touring Gear

 

‘Tis Ski Swap Season. Buying used touring gear can make financial sense. If you’re looking for a first set-up or building out the quiver, our Gear Editor Gavin Hess and Matt Zia (Executive Director of the Montana Mountaineering Association, pack builder, and guide) help us comb through the used gear to find the gems and avoid the junk.

 

 

Enter the Ski Swap

Gavin Hess: Imagine you’re walking into a ski swap, or perhaps into a second-hand sporting goods store, and you’re looking to buy backcountry skis, either for your first pair of skis or you’re just maybe shopping for a good deal on a new pair of skis. 

Matt Zia: A little bit of context here. We ran a backcountry ski and climbing gear swap through Montana Mountaineering. I almost always get this question: “I want a new pair of skis, and this is my first backcountry pair of skis. Is this a good pair?”

The other thing that I would add to this conversation is what gear is worth buying new? Let’s say you have $1,000. What percentage of that should go to buying, whereas all the rest could go towards searching for used gear? I’ll, you know, figure out something that works. Or, this is the money I will spend to re-up or refurbish the used gear I purchase. Considering these questions makes your money go further.

Gavin: In Jackson, the ski swap world has become an interesting sort of market both for buyers and sellers. As the community becomes, I don’t know if split is the right word to describe it, but I view it as more and more people are on two different paths here. One is industry people, who work at a ski shop or like a job that gets them deals. Or they’re financially stable enough to buy new things and wouldn’t even really consider going the used route at a ski swap. 

But I think there is still a lot of value, and there is certainly still a community of people shopping at ski swaps who get deals but are looking for something specific or want to try something different. Or they just moved to town, and they’re overwhelmed by all the skiing options in Jackson: they might need resort skis and backcountry skis, and more specifically,  powder skis and mountaineering skis. 

Matt: N + 1 is the number. This may be a bit far down a rabbit hole, but the demographics of a place are important, too.

Gavin: I was thinking Bozeman is probably a different demographic than here because you’ve got the college. It would seem like there’s a fresh crop of first-year students every year from who knows where, and they’re probably in the market as much as anyone else. 

Matt: Exactly. Bozeman has the pro-deal crowd and increasingly has the wealth you mentioned in Jackson. We also have 1000s of college students.

 

 

 

 

Boots Boots Boots

Gavin: I’ll set some context for what I’m asking. What are you telling somebody who grew up skiing in bounds, is signed up for a rec-one avalanche class, and wants to score some backcountry gear at the ski swap this weekend? What’s your advice, or where are you starting? 

Matt: There are two questions that I would ask initially. One is, “What’s your experience?” And then the other is more a boots question.

So, the skiing experience questions, if we go with your example, someone who grew up skiing, they’ve been in a resort a bunch, and they are familiar with moving around on skis, I look for a ski similar to what you’d use at a resort. For a first pair of backcountry skis, we could go down the rabbit hole for hours and hours and hours on ski design.

If someone knows how to ski and is used to moving on snow, I’d say get something familiar to you. Going into the ski swap, though, the question about boots is key, and I think it is an important one to think about because most skis at a ski swap will come with bindings since it’s a setup that someone used and they’re getting rid of it. So, my question would zero in on the bindings and boots.

We’re all firmly in the pin bindings camp, whether it’s a tech binding system or a tele-tech system. I think the advantages of pin bindings are pretty clear for touring; I’m just thinking about weight and efficiency. 

But for someone just getting into backcountry skiing, I think there is a real question about how much money you will spend on a second pair of boots if your resort boots can’t take pin bindings. And there’s this whole category of crossover boots as well. If someone only has one pair of boots and wants to get in-bounds and out-of-bounds, I’d be looking for a pair of boots that can take a pin binding and step into an alpine binding. 

And that certainly is going to open up the most options as far as boots go. On the flip side, enjoyment and comfort are a big part of what keeps people backcountry skiing. And in backcountry touring, you’ll want boots with walk mode. 

Teaching avalanche classes, sometimes I see people with boots absent a walk mode. Half of my goal on those days is to put the bug in their ear so that they get a pair of proper boots as soon as it makes sense because they’ll have more fun and energy to tour and ski.

Gavin: The enjoyment factor is important. We want to set people up to go ski touring rather than have a painful experience.

Matt: If you’re hiking a couple of laps occasionally or passing through a gate, you can make it work. But, ultimately, you’re going to figure it out pretty darn quickly. Yeah, you want a proper pair of touring boots.

Gavin: I do think, from the boots perspective, that maybe, or at least when I’m thinking about it, you recommend having two setups. If you’re skiing mostly in the resort and you’re exploring backcountry skiing or, perhaps, you are going to the ski swap and looking for a pair of skis for the backcountry, and maybe you already have resort skis, then going into the ski shop and buying a pair of hybrid boots that will fit well and be relatively enjoyable in both aspects. This is maybe a recipe for having the best time at the most reasonable cost to get the right boots. 

Skis, on the other hand, are a little more flexible in some ways. Even if your skis are 10 years old and a little beat up, you can still have a damn good time skiing. Versus, if your boots are 10 years old and a little beat up and don’t fit well, you’re likely not going to have a good time.

Matt: And maybe still, you don’t have a walk mode. 

Gavin: I see that sometimes, too, and imagining the discomfort is horrifying.

Matt: I agree with that, you know, spending a little bit more money on a pair of boots that fits and has the features you want is probably a better use of money than going out and buying a fancy pair of skis.

Gavin: I see people struggle more than succeed, oftentimes, at the ski swap with boots, where they snag a used pair, and they are excited. I feel like the old Salomon MTN was the classic example of this. The blue ones. People say, “I got these Salomons; they were a sweet deal at the ski swap.” And then a season or two later, they’re like, “Now I’m having bunion surgery,” and they didn’t end up saving themselves any money. 

So, long story short—I think the big picture is to be careful with your ski swap boot purchases. Because if it’s not just right, it might not be right at all.

Matt: Let’s discuss pin inserts and fittings on used boots. 

Gavin: Price point-wise, make sure the boot is not haggard—even if the price seems right—which happens at ski swaps. For example, you’ll probably see this at a swap if you look close enough: a pair of TLT 5s that somebody skied 2 million vert on. But in the big picture, if something looks reasonable regarding wear and tear and the cuff doesn’t have too much play, the fittings will probably be okay. 

Obviously, again, do a logical and visual check of those things. Still, if everything else looks okay, chances are, the sole probably isn’t worn down to the point where it’s going to be hard to get in and out of the bindings or the fittings themselves. In my experience, they are pretty, darn durable. I’m not doing skimo race levels of vert, but I’ve also not worn out a pair of fitting to the point where they’re not compatible with my bindings anymore. 

Matt: On a lot of the fancy new touring boots, the fittings are just about the only metal thing and the only steel, and they tend to be the most durable part. If the fittings are worn, chances are that the rest of the boot is far gone. 

Gavin: It’s worth noting that toe fittings are not replaceable, whereas the back fitting is replaceable on touring boots. So, worn toe fittings are not something you can fix. 

 

 

 

 

The Skis

Gavin: How about the nitty gritty on skis, Matt? I’m thinking about mounts, like the number of mounts. Further, if the used skis have bindings, will they adjust to your BSL, and where that puts you on the ski? Or, if the skis are unmounted, were the holes plugged (or can they be plugged)? 

And then, once you buy the skis, check to make sure the mount is well done and is not rotted. 

Matt: If we assume for a second that these skis are coming with bindings mounted, checking the integrity of the binding is super important. Are there any broken pieces? Is there a sense of where there’s any play in the binding, either side to side or back and forth? 

Because some play typically indicates something has gone wrong with the mount; either the screws are stripped, it has taken too many big hits, or the core is rotting out. So checking to make sure all the parts don’t have excessive play is key, and checking to make sure that the adjustment screws, if there are any, are not stripped. 

I’ve seen bindings like that. People are like, “It was a great deal.” Then, they realize that they can’t adjust the binding.

On many touring bindings, for example, the Dynafit Radical, and G3 Zeds, bindings like that, there’s a fair bit of plastic on the binding. So, ensuring no cracks in the plastic is essential, too.

Gavin: Specifically, checking the base of the heel tower on the Radical binding. That’s a good starting point for that—on the front of the heel piece where it intersects the base plate of the binding when I was working in a ski shop, I had a box of those heels, and many had that same crack.

Matt: I’ve seen that, too, a known failure point. You also want to ensure the springs are in good condition on both the toe and heel piece, and if there’s a riser, it flips into place.

Check the springs with and without the boot locked in, just to ensure sure the arms aren’t wiggling independently of each other, making sure all of those connection points are solid, and other small tolerances are within design parameters. .

Gavin: On the Dynafit bindings, especially if they have the Radical toe, they have a little plastic joint between the two springs—make sure that is intact and not cracked or anything like that. That’s a failure point, and I’ve seen that people may not notice this for some time until it fails spectacularly. And you end up with a handful of springs and bits, and that’s a pretty unfortunate scenario in the middle of the ski tour, in my experience.

Matt: There’s a reason why many of us carry a spare toe piece—all the time.

Gavin: Thinking about skis, sometimes we see skis with some p-tex repaired bases or some epoxy here and there to shore up a ding. 

I think delam is the biggest aspect of buying a used ski that scares me—especially in the binding area. If you see that some delamination has been repaired, the ski is likely on its way out because there is probably water in there. This means it will probably rot at some point, and you will rip a binding out or generally not have a long-term relationship with that ski. That’s the biggest one for me. 

Otherwise, it’s kind of a fine balance. In some ways, in my mind, if you see that there’s p-tex work and epoxy on a ski and it’s kind of beat up, but the price is right, chances are, to me, that likely speaks to the owner taking good care of them. 

Matt: It’s amazing what a good ski tech can fix if the ski is brought in at the right time.

Gavin: That’s true, but I’ve never seen a de-lam repair last very long, at least in the big picture.

Matt: Another thing about skis I’d like to mention is the flex—if you flex the skis and they flex very differently from each other, that might be a red flag. Align the skis. If the skis are cambered underfoot, and one ski is flat, that’s probably a sign this ski might be past its usable life. Gavin, what would you say to assess that?

Gavin: That could be a hard one to assess. In some ways, it is almost easier— in a similar way to assessing a tech fitting—to look at the overall condition of the ski, especially when not knowing the model or what it’s supposed to look like. But the overall condition of the ski will often speak to whether or not the flex is intact. 

And I think a difference in the flex of each respective ski in a pair is certainly a red flag. But beyond that, everything you said is pretty spot on, and using one’s judgment on ski condition versus price seems like a good approach. And in this context, I’m okay with the fact that the visual condition of the ski probably matches the condition that the ski is actually in, structurally and integrity wise. 

Most people seem to err on the side of thinking that skis are worn out or past their usable life. But often, the skis are only a season or two old, and they likely ski great. 

 

 

Number of Mounts on a Used Ski 

Gavin: I think the number of mounts is an interesting one. Add to that the location of the mounts. For example, my partner Morgan is one of the best people to buy used skis from because usually there’s very little mount hole overlap because her feet are so tiny. She skis big skis, the size people with much bigger feet are skiing, so you’re buying a 180-centimeter ski that is mounted for 260-millimeter boots. That leaves a lot of real estate to mount a binding for a longer BSL. 

But considering the total number of mounts, I generally think if you’re buying an unmounted ski or a ski that you will have to remount, I won’t spend significant money on something that you will be putting more than the third set of holes in. 

And it could be even less than that if the screw holes are really close together; it all depends on how willing you are to move that mount point around. 

I think two mounts already in a ski, and the idea that you’d be putting a third mount in the ski is an upper limit for me. Once you get beyond that, things start to get funky with having to move around the mount point quite a bit or have holes too close together. 

And that’s an interesting thing to check out; you want to see the conditions of the holes. Are the holes plugged or not—if the holes aren’t plugged or they don’t look like they’ve been waterproofed at any point, especially if there are bindings on the skis and holes are unplugged from previous mounts, that’s a big red flag to me that there’s probably been water ingress to the core. 

If the holes are plugged with, say, a hardwood dowel or bamboo skewer, or something along those lines, and epoxy, that’s another good sign similar to seeing some p-tex repairs and epoxy on top sheet chips that somebody has taken care of them. 

Plastic plugs are okay, too. That’s pretty standard operating practice in the ski shop world, even if it’s not the strongest, but as long as it is not too close to other holes, that’s fine. But it’s all about just making sure that you can’t see a way the core of the ski could be compromised by water. Because that’s a total deal breaker to anyone buying a pair of skis—if the core has water in it or has had water in it at some point, that ski will no longer hold a binding well, or it will become waterlogged and heavy.

Matt: I totally agree with all of that. I think one other thing with bindings is how much adjustment is there and whether your boots fit that binding; I’m thinking about the spacing between the boot heel and the toe pins. Or, even between an alpine toe and an alpine heel, the spacing is important, and in some ways, it’s critical. If the binding doesn’t have enough adjustment to fit your boot, you’ll have to reach for a new binding or move the toe or heel piece around. It’s worth bringing your boots to the swap, or you should know your sole length to check that the ski-binding combo will work without doing a ton of extra work. A binding remount runs about $60. 

Gavin: It’s okay if you have to remount or redrill, but just factoring in that cost if the ski is a really sweet deal is wise. But, if it’s at the upper end of your price range, or maybe you’re not feeling like it’s a super good deal, and then you have to throw in another $80 or something to remount it, it might not make sense.

 

 

 

Used Skins

Matt: Ideally, if you’re buying a ski with skins from a ski swap, and the skins are already cut to the ski, I would look at the two big things. How’s the plush/skin material (no tears and bare spots), and then how’s the glue, as the glue can get dirty? If you’re touring around Montana, often, you spend more time bushwhack-skiing, so you get dirt and detritus on your skin glue. So make sure the skin glue is in good shape both in terms of the amount of dirt on it. 

And then also, you know, excessive heat can mess up the glue and cause it to start balling up, and it will lose its effectiveness. So make sure the glue is in good shape so that the skin actually sticks to your ski base. 

Gavin: On a similar note to how the holes are plugged, or bases are p-texed, and stuff like that, you should eye how well the skins are cut. Maybe this is not critical, but if somebody did a really nice job cutting the skins, there is a clean edge, and it’s not scalloped or messy in any way, that probably is also a good sign that previous users or owners knew what they were doing or how the shop knew what they were doing. 

I would rather buy skis from me now than skis from me, say eight or 10 years ago when I was trying to cut my skins with a pocket knife because I didn’t know how to use the skin-cutting tool that came with the skins and I was mounting my bindings with five-minute epoxy. This was back when I was just making it work without really knowing, versus nowadays, where you can trust me, and I know how to mount a ski, and I know how to take care of the ski and p-tex and wax it, and, if it has multiple mounts, I’m plugging with epoxy and wood dowels: all those little things. And how the skins are cut and how they’re taken care of paints a picture of the previous owner’s care for the skis.